I've had this question for a real long time. Ok, sorry I'll stop. But in all seriousness, I have heard this question so much over the years and this was an article I'd been thinking about writing for forever but then I got distracted and wandered away for a few long years. Sorry about that too.
Given the rise of TikTok and our new generation apparently still engrossed with this question, I thought, what better way to start my blog back up then to try and answer this question for you all. Just bear in mind that this is just my opinion and I cannot speak for all women or good girls in general. We're not a hive mind guys, this is just my hot take on it.
So, back in my day the big example of this was none other than my obsession, Dawson's Creek with Pacey framed as the "bad boy from the wrong side of the tracks" and Dawson framed as "the NiceGuytm" and naturally, that's the model I'm going to use to explain my perspective as a relatively "good girl." Let's get started, shall we?
I remember vividly in school there being ardent discussions over who Joey should choose. Girls were definitely divided on the issue with some citing things like "soulmates" in defense of Dawson/Joey and a majority of others citing actual on screen chemistry and development in defense of Pacey/Joey. Yes, I'm biased here but we all knew this already, especially if you've been reading my blog. Dawson is the worst.
But here's the thing, a lot of young guys identified with Dawson. A lot. Why is that? Well, on the surface, Dawson is lauded by everyone around him as smart, dependable, loyal, and an all around righteous dude. He's the hero of the story and I'll be damned if all teens, and people in general view themselves as the hero of their own story. Then there's the key fact that Dawson is presented as the guy who doesn't get the girl. He's presented as this amazing guy that for some reason girls just don't respond to and when you're a lonely teen that is highly relatable-but is it true?
For starters, Dawson does get the girl. Numerous times. He gets Jen over Cliff. The minute he wants Joey he gets her. He gets Eve, Nikki Wood, Gretchen Witter, and on and on. It's just somehow, when he gets the girl it's always presented as a rarity or shocking to him and most audiences bought that. He was the put upon NiceGuytm. Yet, when he asked a girl out, the answer was usually yes so I never understood this narrative that the show tried to push and some viewers bought. He did alright for himself and yet he always lamented that girls didn't go for him. Why?
Let's take Dawson out of his TV show for a second, where I'm pretty sure he would actually do a lot worse with women and I'll tell you why. The show might have told us that Dawson is incredible and smart and nice and honest but was he? Let's see what was actually shown to us:
- He ignored his friend who blatantly had a crush on him, because she wasn't the type of girl he wanted to like him.
- He staked a claim on a girl he'd only just met and became obsessively jealous about her spending time with anyone else, including his friend.
- He slut shamed the girl he liked because she'd dared to have sex before she even met him or knew he existed.
- He broke his friend's nose out of jealousy that he was supposedly better at chatting up girls than him
- He became interested in his friend only after she presented herself in an appealing way to him.
- He belittled his girlfriend's interests
- He invaded his girlfriend's privacy by reading her diary
- He has an inflated ego about his movie making skills
- He wrote, shot, and edited a movie about his breakup with Joey despite her objections
- Turned Joey down (which was fair) and sent Pacey to look after her then got butthurt when they developed feelings for each other
- Demanded that Joey not follow her heart and be with Pacey or he'd refuse to be friends with her, essentially manipulating her so she couldn't date who she wanted.
I could go on but I think I've made my point, he's a garbage person. Would you equate this with the behaviour of someone who is supposedly nice? Like yes, he could be nice at times but overall he was a petulant, spoiled brat who felt entitled to what he wanted, when he wanted it. He was essentially the villain of season 3 and there was no coming back from that.
Meanwhile we have Pacey, our resident supposed "bad boy". I've really never understood this descriptor of him. Was he the bad boy because he'd had "the sex"? Was he a bad boy because he came from an abusive home? Because he's poor? Because he does poorly in school? Because he gets into fights? Maybe the fights part, I could see but the rest? Hell no. But depicted as the bad boy he was and I'm sure a lot of teen guys at the time hated that Joey picked Pacey over Dawson, twice. So why did Joey the ultimate "good girl" pick the bad boy over the heroic NiceGuytm?
Let's take a look at his bad boy traits, shall we?
1) He'd had THE SEX!!!
Yep, he did but let's remember that his first time was with his teacher. This was played by the show as him being bad but in reality? FUCK NO. Tamara was a horrendous person who took advantage of an extremely vulnerable, attention starved and hormonal teen. I don't care how much he wanted the fantasy, it was up to her to protect him and set the boundaries. She should have reported it, she should have reported his abusive situation. Don't tell me she didn't know. His brother pointed a gun at his head in front of her. Fuck her. The second person he had sex with was Andie and they were in an extremely committed relationship. The third person was Joey and again, extremely committed relationship where he waited until she was ready. Did he get whiny about the lack of sex in his relationship with Joey, heck yes but that was after six months of dating and honey, that is a long fucking commitment in teen years. So, yeah, he'd had sex but sex is natural and he was pretty freaking mature and healthy about it considering his teacher took advantage of him at the start of his sex life.
2) He came from an abusive home.
Yeah, and? His parents and brother were assholes to him but that never shaped how he behaved. He was actually overly caring with his friends in spite of their poor examples. Dawson acted like way more of a shit and he came from an upper middle class, privileged home so upbringing and family background is not always a clear indicator of who is and isn't a shit person.
3) He's poor
Being poor doesn't make you bad or a criminal so this alone doesn't make anyone bad.
4) He does poorly in school
Ok, maybe this one could work. He's seen as a loser with no future because he can't get good grades, except, he's seen multiple times throughout the show as working hard to improve himself. He was starting to get good grades because despite being bad at schoolwork, Pacey was always shown as being capable and smart. It's funny, Dawson's grades were never mentioned or talked about much, I think we were just supposed to assume he got good grades because he's white and middle class but I bet he didn't work half as hard as Pacey or Joey did for their grades.
5) He gets into fights
Yes, this is very true he did punch a few people in the face and spat in a teacher's face but here's the thing, context matters. Dawson punched quite a few people too and was never viewed as a scrapper or troublemaker and yet whenever he punched someone it was out of jealousy or anger. He punched Pacey in the face because he thought he stole test answers from him for example. Pacey punched a guy in the face that was taking advantage of Joey, he punched a guy in the face that destroyed Joey's art out of malice, he spat in a teacher's face who bullied Jack and essentially outed him to the school. Was it a good way to react? No, but at the very least he was motivated by the fact that his friends were hurt and not by his own jealousy and anger.
So you tell me, why do you think Joey chose Pacey over Dawson? Because he treated her like shit? No. Because he encouraged her to follow her dreams, he listened to her and talked with her, and he is just damn charming. Was Pacey perfect? No but he was shown to be a hell of a lot more caring and thoughtful than Dawson was and that's kind of my point.
When you ask an innocuous question like "why do good girls like bad boys?" You're boiling everything down way too basically and outright judging someone when you may not know their full character. Is the girl you like even all that good or just someone you imagined to be good, placing her on a pedestal much like Dawson did to Jen and to an extent Joey? What makes someone good and another person bad? Maybe you are projecting things onto them in your own frustration and out of jealousy that they got the girl and you didn't. Is the boy really that bad? Maybe he's a jerk to you but how does he actually treat his girl? His friends? Maybe he's not as bad as you think. Are you really a nice guy? My bet is that the answer is likely no but that doesn't mean you can't change. Many people realize that they are behaving poorly when they think like this and grow up and learn from it, I sure did.
My final most important point is that attraction boils down to chemistry. Yes, there are superficial people in the world who only date based on looks and wealth and I ask you, would you really want to be with that person anyway? The rest of us are just looking for a connection, a spark with someone. I may get along fine with a person but that doesn't automatically mean I want to date them, for me personally I need a spark. I can't explain what it is and I've sparked with very few people in my life but it's just this feeling or vibe you get that you just know you want to be more than friends with someone. Sometimes, you might get that feeling when the other person doesn't, that's called a crush and it happens and it sucks but if the person isn't feeling it with you then you need to move on.
So, instead of asking why good girls like bad boys maybe we should be asking ourselves am I looking for the right person for myself? Let's stop trying to plug people into categories and generalizations. Lets not worry about who other people choose to be with and start focusing on ourselves. And for all you lonely girls and boys out there, this one's for you:
Given the rise of TikTok and our new generation apparently still engrossed with this question, I thought, what better way to start my blog back up then to try and answer this question for you all. Just bear in mind that this is just my opinion and I cannot speak for all women or good girls in general. We're not a hive mind guys, this is just my hot take on it.
So, back in my day the big example of this was none other than my obsession, Dawson's Creek with Pacey framed as the "bad boy from the wrong side of the tracks" and Dawson framed as "the NiceGuytm" and naturally, that's the model I'm going to use to explain my perspective as a relatively "good girl." Let's get started, shall we?
I remember vividly in school there being ardent discussions over who Joey should choose. Girls were definitely divided on the issue with some citing things like "soulmates" in defense of Dawson/Joey and a majority of others citing actual on screen chemistry and development in defense of Pacey/Joey. Yes, I'm biased here but we all knew this already, especially if you've been reading my blog. Dawson is the worst.
But here's the thing, a lot of young guys identified with Dawson. A lot. Why is that? Well, on the surface, Dawson is lauded by everyone around him as smart, dependable, loyal, and an all around righteous dude. He's the hero of the story and I'll be damned if all teens, and people in general view themselves as the hero of their own story. Then there's the key fact that Dawson is presented as the guy who doesn't get the girl. He's presented as this amazing guy that for some reason girls just don't respond to and when you're a lonely teen that is highly relatable-but is it true?
For starters, Dawson does get the girl. Numerous times. He gets Jen over Cliff. The minute he wants Joey he gets her. He gets Eve, Nikki Wood, Gretchen Witter, and on and on. It's just somehow, when he gets the girl it's always presented as a rarity or shocking to him and most audiences bought that. He was the put upon NiceGuytm. Yet, when he asked a girl out, the answer was usually yes so I never understood this narrative that the show tried to push and some viewers bought. He did alright for himself and yet he always lamented that girls didn't go for him. Why?
Let's take Dawson out of his TV show for a second, where I'm pretty sure he would actually do a lot worse with women and I'll tell you why. The show might have told us that Dawson is incredible and smart and nice and honest but was he? Let's see what was actually shown to us:
- He ignored his friend who blatantly had a crush on him, because she wasn't the type of girl he wanted to like him.
- He staked a claim on a girl he'd only just met and became obsessively jealous about her spending time with anyone else, including his friend.
- He slut shamed the girl he liked because she'd dared to have sex before she even met him or knew he existed.
- He broke his friend's nose out of jealousy that he was supposedly better at chatting up girls than him
- He became interested in his friend only after she presented herself in an appealing way to him.
- He belittled his girlfriend's interests
- He invaded his girlfriend's privacy by reading her diary
- He has an inflated ego about his movie making skills
- He wrote, shot, and edited a movie about his breakup with Joey despite her objections
- Turned Joey down (which was fair) and sent Pacey to look after her then got butthurt when they developed feelings for each other
- Demanded that Joey not follow her heart and be with Pacey or he'd refuse to be friends with her, essentially manipulating her so she couldn't date who she wanted.
I could go on but I think I've made my point, he's a garbage person. Would you equate this with the behaviour of someone who is supposedly nice? Like yes, he could be nice at times but overall he was a petulant, spoiled brat who felt entitled to what he wanted, when he wanted it. He was essentially the villain of season 3 and there was no coming back from that.
Meanwhile we have Pacey, our resident supposed "bad boy". I've really never understood this descriptor of him. Was he the bad boy because he'd had "the sex"? Was he a bad boy because he came from an abusive home? Because he's poor? Because he does poorly in school? Because he gets into fights? Maybe the fights part, I could see but the rest? Hell no. But depicted as the bad boy he was and I'm sure a lot of teen guys at the time hated that Joey picked Pacey over Dawson, twice. So why did Joey the ultimate "good girl" pick the bad boy over the heroic NiceGuytm?
Let's take a look at his bad boy traits, shall we?
1) He'd had THE SEX!!!
Yep, he did but let's remember that his first time was with his teacher. This was played by the show as him being bad but in reality? FUCK NO. Tamara was a horrendous person who took advantage of an extremely vulnerable, attention starved and hormonal teen. I don't care how much he wanted the fantasy, it was up to her to protect him and set the boundaries. She should have reported it, she should have reported his abusive situation. Don't tell me she didn't know. His brother pointed a gun at his head in front of her. Fuck her. The second person he had sex with was Andie and they were in an extremely committed relationship. The third person was Joey and again, extremely committed relationship where he waited until she was ready. Did he get whiny about the lack of sex in his relationship with Joey, heck yes but that was after six months of dating and honey, that is a long fucking commitment in teen years. So, yeah, he'd had sex but sex is natural and he was pretty freaking mature and healthy about it considering his teacher took advantage of him at the start of his sex life.
2) He came from an abusive home.
Yeah, and? His parents and brother were assholes to him but that never shaped how he behaved. He was actually overly caring with his friends in spite of their poor examples. Dawson acted like way more of a shit and he came from an upper middle class, privileged home so upbringing and family background is not always a clear indicator of who is and isn't a shit person.
3) He's poor
Being poor doesn't make you bad or a criminal so this alone doesn't make anyone bad.
4) He does poorly in school
Ok, maybe this one could work. He's seen as a loser with no future because he can't get good grades, except, he's seen multiple times throughout the show as working hard to improve himself. He was starting to get good grades because despite being bad at schoolwork, Pacey was always shown as being capable and smart. It's funny, Dawson's grades were never mentioned or talked about much, I think we were just supposed to assume he got good grades because he's white and middle class but I bet he didn't work half as hard as Pacey or Joey did for their grades.
5) He gets into fights
Yes, this is very true he did punch a few people in the face and spat in a teacher's face but here's the thing, context matters. Dawson punched quite a few people too and was never viewed as a scrapper or troublemaker and yet whenever he punched someone it was out of jealousy or anger. He punched Pacey in the face because he thought he stole test answers from him for example. Pacey punched a guy in the face that was taking advantage of Joey, he punched a guy in the face that destroyed Joey's art out of malice, he spat in a teacher's face who bullied Jack and essentially outed him to the school. Was it a good way to react? No, but at the very least he was motivated by the fact that his friends were hurt and not by his own jealousy and anger.
So you tell me, why do you think Joey chose Pacey over Dawson? Because he treated her like shit? No. Because he encouraged her to follow her dreams, he listened to her and talked with her, and he is just damn charming. Was Pacey perfect? No but he was shown to be a hell of a lot more caring and thoughtful than Dawson was and that's kind of my point.
When you ask an innocuous question like "why do good girls like bad boys?" You're boiling everything down way too basically and outright judging someone when you may not know their full character. Is the girl you like even all that good or just someone you imagined to be good, placing her on a pedestal much like Dawson did to Jen and to an extent Joey? What makes someone good and another person bad? Maybe you are projecting things onto them in your own frustration and out of jealousy that they got the girl and you didn't. Is the boy really that bad? Maybe he's a jerk to you but how does he actually treat his girl? His friends? Maybe he's not as bad as you think. Are you really a nice guy? My bet is that the answer is likely no but that doesn't mean you can't change. Many people realize that they are behaving poorly when they think like this and grow up and learn from it, I sure did.
My final most important point is that attraction boils down to chemistry. Yes, there are superficial people in the world who only date based on looks and wealth and I ask you, would you really want to be with that person anyway? The rest of us are just looking for a connection, a spark with someone. I may get along fine with a person but that doesn't automatically mean I want to date them, for me personally I need a spark. I can't explain what it is and I've sparked with very few people in my life but it's just this feeling or vibe you get that you just know you want to be more than friends with someone. Sometimes, you might get that feeling when the other person doesn't, that's called a crush and it happens and it sucks but if the person isn't feeling it with you then you need to move on.
So, instead of asking why good girls like bad boys maybe we should be asking ourselves am I looking for the right person for myself? Let's stop trying to plug people into categories and generalizations. Lets not worry about who other people choose to be with and start focusing on ourselves. And for all you lonely girls and boys out there, this one's for you:
YES YES YES! LOVE THIS!
ReplyDeleteIt's kind of insane to me that this trope still exists, and is still so strong. There must be something to it that is appealing - is it the desire to see/read about the protagonist and the 'bad boy' in a fantasy setting, where we are safe from the actual bad boys in our lives? Is it that we like the idea of a bad boy actually being presented as such, when in reality it's the Nice Guy TM who is most likely to sexually assault you and then gaslight you afterwards. I don't know, my thoughts are jumbled around this, but one thing I will say here is that I appreciated reading your comments around how it feels to have feelings for someone but to push them aside for the sake of someone else's feelings. I haven't been in that specific situation, but I have been in the situation of having a boyfriend who was a Nice Guy, who sent me flowers and wrote me love letters and told me that he loved me after dating for about a week. (I was 15.) He also couldn't handle the thought of me talking to any other boys and I soon started being careful about what I said to him in order to protect his feelings. When he crossed a boundary that I'd set with no apparent remorse and no regard for my feelings (or my friend's feelings), I broke up with him. I did it in a horrible way, which I regret, and I'm fortunate that he got the professional help he needed in the aftermath of that (and he did apologise to me later on as well) but honestly the whole experience scarred me for years. One thing I am very grateful for, though, is that my mother completely understood how I felt about the situation, and talked to me about it, and never tried to convince me that it was "romantic" when she could tell how uneasy it made me. This is why the likes of Henry, in Dawson's Creek, really makes my skin crawl. (Well, that and he's a serial killer.) His grand gestures are weird and clearly stolen from some handbook of "what girls want" whereas Pacey (the hero of the show and keeper of my heart to this day) knew how to make a grand gesture that was about what that particular individual girl both wanted and needed.
Nobody can ever tell me that Pacey wasn't the best choice for Joey. Dawson belittled her art. Pacey bought her a wall.
I'm so sorry, you went through that situation. That sounds creepy and uncomfortable as hell. Good you cut ties and good that he got help and improved himself.
DeleteAgree so hard on Henry's grand gestures being empty and meaningless whereas Pacey actually listens to what the girl wants. Case in point, giving Andie her dream night and making sure she knew that just because it was her first time fantasy, it doesn't mean she was obligated to have sex with him, he just wanted to give her a good night.
What did Henry do? Embarrass Jen at a play and sell his blood to buy her a ring that he thought looked expensive but didn't really seem like something Jen wanted at all. (In fairness Jen did say she liked it but jewellery just didn't seem like it would be all that important to Jen)